Tuesday, November 11, 2008

What is happiness?

I've started going to a book study on Sunday nights that is about Richard Dawkins' God Delusion and Timothy Keller's The Reason for God. It's run by two guys from a local church who want to reach out to the local college kids. Our first meeting was really diverse and we had an interesting discussion but I think two of the non-religious people were getting annoyed because they wanted to have a debate. Oh well. This past Sunday, there were only two of us that showed up, and since everyone in the room was Christian we had more of a Christian-slanted discussion. We read a couple paragraphs from the preface to Dawkins' book and the conversation just took off from there.

In the preface Dawkins says "You can be an atheist who is happy, balanced, moral, and intellectually fulfilled." So we asked, what would the list for a Christian look like? "You can be a Christian who is..." And we came up with: justice, love, servitude, redemption, and purpose. You could argue that those things could fall under Dawkins' list - for instance, purpose can be included in intellectual fulfillment. But I think that's stretching it a little, and these are meant to be very broad categories.

Then we started asking "What does it mean to be happy?" Happiness is a word that I never really liked that much but I could never articulate why. What's so wrong with wanting to be happy? Nothing. But is happiness the goal of life? What actually is the meaning of life? It's a question we all laugh at because it's so trite but we also laugh at it because most of us don't know how to answer it. Foucault would essentially say there isn't any meaning because humans can't shape history, there is no such thing as 'human essence,' there are no origins, blah blah blah. But then he also says that meaning is created through relations. The point is, Michel Foucault's ideas are silly and depressing as shit. (I know I'm really eloquent). Anyways, that was just a tangent for me to express my displeasure of writing an essay on Foucault's ideas that I completely disagree with. SO, you have to distinguish between the two kinds of happiness that we're concerned with. Happy can be used to qualify a mood but happy can also mean existentially satisfied. When you first have a discussion on what it means to be happy, you have to make sure that you're speaking about the same kind of happy. We focused on the latter kind because to only want to be mood-happy means you're only living from moment to moment. Pursuing only mood-happiness is a pursual of the next thing that will make you happy. So we finished that discussion pretty quickly and moved on to existential-happy.

What's the difference between an atheist who is existentially satisfied and a Christian who is as well? Take an atheist who has lived a compassionate, fulfilling, happy (both in mood and existence), self-sacrificing, mother theresa, type of life. And then a Christian who is the exact same as that atheist but happens to be a Christian. That atheist could most definitely die a perfectly existentially happy person and never know the Christian faith. Absolutely possible. But a Christian would define true happiness as knowing God and having a relationship with Him. So from the Christian perspective, though this atheist dies perfectly happy with his life, he hadn't actually attained true happiness because he didn't know God. Well how the hell does one tell an atheist "excuse me you think you are existentially satisfied but actually, uhm, you're wrong. you're missing something honey." We talked about how in a discussion like this one, an individual has to be willing to make the jump to thinking about God, to thinking about the possibility that true happiness only lies in God, to put aside his/her own personal beliefs, because if this person is completely closed to the Christian idea, then the conversation basically stops. Both parties have to be willing to entertain the other's ideas. I know it sounds really basic but I think too often people try to have discussions like this purely from one side and then all you have is two people making two separate points to a brick wall. So what's the difference? The difference is that the Christian says that this atheist had never actually experienced true existential satisfaction/happiness.

Then we talked about indoctrination because Dawkins' hates specifically childhood indoctrination. And we also talked about the question"What does faith do for me?" and whether or not it's a selfish question to ask. But now I have to go to cognitive neuroscience, and I will finish this post later.

6 comments:

Anonymous said...

I was reading the rest of the blog- loved the tangent on Foucault... you are too funny.

In the preface Dawkins says "You can be an atheist who is happy, balanced, moral, and intellectually fulfilled." -- when I first read that quote, I took it to mean, "Most people don't think an atheist can be those four things, but he can be" (which therefore means that the list for the Christian would be the same, except no one would debate it)- if someone said, "You can be a Christian who is happy, balanced, moral, and intellectually fulfilled," people would say, well, duh.

for this one- Well how the hell does one tell an atheist "excuse me you think you are existentially satisfied but actually, uhm, you're wrong. you're missing something honey."
I think you make a good point in this- "too often people try to have discussions like this purely from one side and then all you have is two people making two separate points to a brick wall."

How could one have a discussion from both sides? The two points of view are contradictory. I would love to be able to see things from your point of view, but how do I know when I "know God and have a relationship with him"? (because if at any point I say, okay, now I know god and I still don't feel any more fulfilled than when I was an atheist, you would say, then you don't really know god.)
I think the problem is not that people don't try to see things from the other's point of view-
I think that it is impossible.

You and beks are perfect case studies. Beks came from Fargo and was about as Christian as you could be- she is now an atheist and is more fulfilled in life.
You came from an anti-religious communist background (right?) and now that you are a Christian, you are more fulfilled in life.

Wow- that response to your blog was longer than I thought it would be. I miss you...

Stephanie said...

1. the point we were discussing was that those four things are not the four things that would appear on a Christian's list. Not that those things are not true for Christians, but that I don't think those things are not what being a Christian is about. Therefore the list for a Christian would look different

2. it's because people think that it's impossible. i shouldn't have used "see things from ___ point of view," because I don't think that accurately captures what I was trying to say. it's more that you can't convince someone or get someone to understand you by purely talking from one side. the other person at some point has to make the jump, has to try out your ideas. because otherwise it's impossible to have productive conversation. i still don't think i explained that well enough. i've been designing my blog for the last half hour but i really should be writing my paper now.

3. haha to the communist background. and i agree with your statement - that we both are more fulfilled. but the christian would argue that beks may feel fulfilled but she's still missing that ultimate fulfillment which can only come from God.

4. I miss you too! your'e coming to my bday party on the 26th right?!

Anonymous said...

Let's say that I did try to come to your side (I was tempted to say the dark side... jokes jokes!) and "know god." And let's say I was successful. If I then reported that I am no more fulfilled than I was before I knew god, would a christian accept the argument that one can be atheist and not miss any ultimate fulfillment? That, perhaps for some, God is just not necessary?

Stephanie said...

i can't speak for all christians, but in a very small nutshell my answer is "no."

Anonymous said...

You're right- I didn't mean to ask about 'a christian,' but rather I meant to say would you believe...

I like the qualifiers of very small nutshell and the quotes around the no. Even, so I was surprised, so I have a follow up question.

For ultimate fulfillment, is it necessary to believe in christian god? (and of course** the PC person in every American has the automatic response, no- you can believe in a Jewish, Muslim, or Sikh, etc. God) So I want to be more specific- what do you really mean by God? (I know this sounds like a deep difficult question, but I don't mean it to be.)

What is necessary to "know God"? What are the necessary aspects of God that one must believe in, in order to be fulfilled? Is it simply spirituality? Can I believe in multiple Gods? Can I believe in nature as the source of spirituality? Can I believe in math to achieve ultimate fulfillment?

If yes to some of these questions and no to others, why? What are the distinctions in each case? (i.e. monotheism is okay, polytheism is not OR believing in a god that continues to affect the world is okay, but solely believing in god as a creator is not.)

**I said of course, but I know Jay wouldn't grant this. I assumed you would allow people of other faiths to have ultimate fulfillment... maybe I was wrong.

Stephanie said...

1. Yes it is. Back to my previous example an atheist, Jew, Muslim, Sikh, or anyone else, can die feeling perfectly fulfilled. But by my understanding of ultimate fulfillment, I would say that they had not actually achieved it even though I will believe that they died feeling that they had achieved it. That may be convoluted. Read it slowly or ask me more questions. haha. What I mean by God is the Christian, Biblical God. A God who is perfectly just, merciful, loving, and faithful. A God who is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I know those are all very Christian-ese terms but that's who God is.

2. What a great question. That's the story of my life. What does it take to 'know God?' It's something that I'm always trying to work out. It's funny because all these fundamental questions are usually the hardest ones to grapple with. Well for me, at least. Everyone's different in their faith. Anyways what I understand to be knowing God is having a relationship with Him kinda like having a relationship with a person but on much more elevated level. But to know Him in such a way that I understand his character, His message for the world, and that I want to praise Him simply for the fact that He is God. Lots of Christian-ese again but for me and the way my brain operates, what I really focus on is understanding God's character. Asking what are the necessary aspects of God to believe in in order to be fulfilled isnt' really the right question to ask. Because you don't believe in aspects of God. You believe in God in his entirety and you establish a relationship with Him, so that He's not just some Deistic being that wipes His hands of us humans. But a relationship that informs your life, your thoughts, your actions, etc. No you can't believe in multiple Gods. It's not just about spirituality. Well I"m not really sure what you mean by spirituality. Clarification? Because nature, like yoga, can be a spiritual experience in the sense that it cleanses, refreshes, and renews you. But all that in a very surface, material sense. No you can't believe in math to achieve ultimate fulfillment because math is not God.

3. I believe I answered no to all those questions.